Heres a whopper of a story for you guys

[gaintsura]

Alright, so I'm just now preparing to enter into my last term of ITT as CNS. From the first day I stepped foot into the campus, which in my area, isn't even technically a campus, its a 'Learning Site', I was very un impressed. First day of class, my impression level dropped even more. Crappy teachers, horrible systems for the students.. just overall, horrible. 'Maybe it will get better' I thought to myself. Little did I know, I should have hit the door running that first night and told them to kiss my ass.

Just recently the learning site (Aurora, CO) 'upgraded' their systems... yeah, that was a slick move, kind of. Now not only do we have crappy teachers, our systems have gotten even worse, the network now takes twice as long to log us in, further down the hole we go!

As I'm sure everyone knows, its required for all students to take Composition I and II, and this is where my story begins. Composition I was taught by, the now head honcho of the learning site, and shes a great teacher, and a good person as a whole. Comp II on the other hand.. wow, let me say I felt like I was back in preschool all over again. Below is a general description of the goings on (Days = Week #).

Comp II Day1: Class begins, and the teacher, introduces herself, is like 60 something years old, and her entire career is based on Realty and teaching highschool teachers how to teach. Mistake #1. She makes us write out the days objectives in this horrible little bubble diagram, I'm already fed up. She introduces the class content, which at the time, seemed fairly decent.

Comp II Day2: The teacher has us write a random ass paragraph to 'gauge our writing', I go on about it as I should 'as a sheep' so to speak. Nothing really out of the ordinary there.

Comp II Day3: Immediately upon entering the class she tells us that shes going to 're-teach' us how to use comma's.. I'm sorry, did I hear you right? Commas? Who feels like they are back in preschool?? I DO! I left just after the first hour, she gets butt-hurt because I could not put up with her condescending attitude any longer.

While we're on the subject of condescending attitudes... Here's how that went down. During day 3 she told us that we had to pick from a 'select list of topics' all of which were loaded questions and related to politics, and now I'm sitting here asking myself, what does this have to do with a technical degree? Absolutely Nothing. The rest of the class with the exception of my group has chosen a topic, We're left with 'gun control', what a subject. Suddenly I see this class becoming liberal arts and no longer a composition class, am I delusional? I think not. My group and myself go out to have a cigarette and 'discuss'. We're not even out there 2 minutes before (from here on in, I'll continue to call her the cryptkeeper) the cryptkeeper decides to come out after us like we lost our way or something. Immediately she begins talking down to us as if we're little children who don't know whats going on. Telling us that we NEED to do this and that we HAVE to stay, blah blah blah. Again, does this remind you of preschool/elementary school? Me too.. I'm waiting for the safety scissors and construction paper at this point. Again, I leave less than an hour after class begins.

Comp II Day 4: Absent.

Comp II Day 5: Class begins again, and I'm immediately appalled by the way this class is going. She gave us a quiz on comma's. I didn't even touch it, I laughed out loud, threw it on the ground and left. The week before we were supposed to do an outline of sorts for this project, and other assorted 'composition' work that we learned in the previous Comp I class.

Comp II Day 6: Have you ever had that feeling that you shouldn't have done something, but decided to go and do it anyway? Yeah, that would be me today, I should never have even stepped foot in that class room again, but alas, I did anyway. I stayed about a half hour longer than usual, and after deciding that this was going to be the exact same crap as the last 5 weeks. She tells us that this is a 'group project' but we all have to write a separate 8 page paper. Thats right, you heard me, 8 pages. I don't know what she thinks we do the rest of the time that we aren't in class, and I don't know about the rest of you, but I do have a life and a 24/7 job that I have to take time from to come to class.

Comp II Day 7: At this point I'm throughly fed up with having to put up with her. The cryptkeeper comes up to me and in, again, a very condescending attitude, tells me that I HAVE to turn in work, and that I HAVE to stay later than an hour and a half after class starts. Without hesitation, without notice, I looked her dead in the eye and said I have a 24/7 job that I do, when I'm not there, I'm here, and I cannot spend more time here than I am already. 'Well you have to do something'. I lost it.. I stood up, in the middle of the class, looked her dead in the face and said 'What part of 24/7 JOB do you not understand?' the whole class burst out laughing. I said screw this, grabbed my stuff and left. As it is, this whole class has been an exact reflection of just exactly what ITT does.

Comp II Day 8: I've had my fair share of dealing with this craptastic cryptkeeper of a teacher, and I'm about fed up with it. During class, she's going around to all of the groups and 'discussing' with them. Pat, who is the Head at the thornton campus has come to sit in on this class ( there were 2 previous sit-in's which resulted in nothing ), he gets up to leave the class and go do something. He isn't even gone 30 seconds and she's complaining about having to read all of the students paper's, and how tired she's going to be, and this, that and the other. The minute he comes back into the class, she goes right back to being 'little miss proper'. I leave again.

Comp II Day 10: Class begins, and she is hounding on our group to get this 'composition project' completed. I'm sorry lady, I don't dabble in politics and I certainly don't deal with condescending people. She tells me, and the rest of my group that 'If you aren't going to pass on just the paper alone, then you shouldn't be here' <- exact quote.

Comp II Day 11: At this point, this has already gone on far too long, I didn't even bother going, I emailed my paper, and told her how incompetent and condescending she was. This is the last day of class.

Now, so far, thats a lot of bulls***, but that isn't even the half of it. Day's 2, 3, 6 and 7, I leave and go complain to multiple people. All I get told is 'that the issue is being resolved and there will be someone to sit in on the class' Each and every sit-in resulted in a 180 change in her attitude, teaching, etc, but the minute the sit-in was over, it was right back to the safety scissors and construction paper. Now, I was not the only one to go and complain, there were 4 other's who went and did the same, actually, it was at almost the same time as well. Now, I think that 5 people complaining separately about the same thing, in almost the same fashion should raise a few flags.

The end of the term was just about a week ago, I have failed the class with a 17%. After I found out that I failed, I proceeded again, to complain to the head of the learning site, and she directed me to the student portal to file a complaint.. yeah, right, there isn't even a link like that.. However there should be, and if there was, there would be a book the size of war and peace (hard back) in less than 48 hours. Not knowing where to turn, I decided to write an email to Pat, in regards to all of this, which is below:

I'm really not sure who to direct this to, as I have tried speaking with Cielle and she directed me to the student portal, which didn't help me much. Let me start from the beginning.

Composition II (this past term). The teacher, last name is Munich, this was her first time actually teaching a class, ok, I can understand that. However, her ethics were very unimpressive, as was her teaching style, and not to mention the way she treated us as students. I understand that composition II is supposed to be a debate/argumentative styled class, which from what I saw (and I was there all but 2 classes) was NOT what the class had become. She spent an entire class period trying to 're-educate us' on comma's. I'm sorry, but if you still haven't figured out what a comma is, thats not her problem.

After complaining to Jill and Cielle at the Aurora campus, they had someone come and sit in on the class for an hour, you were one of them, I remember that. What you saw, was most definitely the complete opposite of what we as students saw the minute you, or any other evaluator, left the room. She repeatedly talked down to us as if we were kindergarten students, and frequently complained (out loud) to the students about the things she was going to have to do for the class. In my eyes, and I think that it should be heavily taken into consideration considering I'm the one who is paying for this education, she had no right of being there, even 1/3 as long as she has been.

A prime example of the above..

Class, thursday night. Nick, Alex, Myself and Chris Donahoo were in the middle of discussing our 'project' which seemed more like a loaded question than a debatable subject, we decided to go outside so that we could smoke and discuss. Not even 3 minutes after we went out there, Ms. Munich comes tailing along and begins speaking to us in a very condesending manner, treating us as if we had no idea what was really going on. After this little stunt, I was fed up and I again, complained to Jill, I belive it was. This was about the time that you had come in to sit and watch the class. 2 previous people had sat in on the class, and like I said earlier, she showed a complete 180 in attitude and personality.

My wife also happened to be there the night that she went out and... I'll just say 'spoke' to us. Munich had no idea who she was and continued on as if no one else were there. Very unprofessional.

This is all just a very small portion of the things that went on in that class, and because of her lack of inteligence, extreme neglegence, and condesending attitude. I would like to file a formal complaint towards her and be passed of that class. I refuse to spend more of my money on a class that I should have passed to begin with, and I would have if the teacher hadn't been so condesending and neglegent. 4 times now, my graduation date has been pushed back becuase of 'ITT policy' and I will not stand for it anymore. ITT has lost my registartion, swapped me from full and part time (without me knowing), and on top of that, dropped me from classes, changed me in classes without my knowledge. I'm paying $40,000+ for this 'education' and what I've seen so far has been a total lack of. Failing composition I the first time was out of my hands, and I accept the responsibility for that, however, this class, was completely and totally uncalled for, and should have been taken care of when more than 1 student complained. But alas, nothing happend other than 'standard procedure' which got nothing accomplished, and caused students to have to stay back and wait YET AGAIN to graduate.

Pat, am I wrong in saying these things? because I really do not feel that I am, nor do I feel that I should have to re-take this class, which was supposed to be Composition II and quickly turned in to Liberal Arts.

Please give me your input and direct me to where I file a complaint, because I will not stand by and let this happen anymore. It is bad enough that I'm spending $40,000 and haven't learned a thing, much less spending $40,000 for incompetent teachers.

Thank you for listening.

------

I just sent that email this past Thursday, and have not heard a response back yet. I waited until today to contact the head at the aurora campus via google talk. Here is that coversation..

(11:17:06 AM) Chris: So... how is my schedule going to be, after the comp II crap? Also, I haven't heard anything back from pat in regards to the email I sent him
(11:19:49 AM) Cielle: Pat is reviewing your situation (I am actually on the phone right now0 and will respond within the next couple of hours
(11:20:32 AM) Cielle: Since Pat and I have the same position, it also needs to be reviewed with Gerald.
(11:20:48 AM) Chris: ok
(02:56:40 PM) Chris: have you heard anything yet?
(02:57:06 PM) Cielle: they're still reviewing it
(02:57:14 PM) Chris: reviewing what exactly?
(02:57:39 PM) Cielle: they went over my memos when you complained to me, and are drafting their reply
(02:58:14 PM) Chris: ... bureaucracy .. what a waste
(02:59:49 PM) Cielle: I don't know what you want me to write...
(03:01:13 PM) Chris: I don't want you to write anything... I just think its a sham how I basically got failed because of a teachers incompetence.
(03:01:24 PM) Cielle: that't not necesarily true
(03:01:27 PM) Cielle: you didn't do the work
(03:01:39 PM) Cielle: you knew that you were going to fail half way through the qurater
(03:01:55 PM) Chris: that ENTIRE class was like being in middle school all over again, thats not what I'm paying ITT for
(03:02:24 PM) Cielle: I realize it was that way for you, but it wasn't like that for all the students
(03:02:34 PM) Cielle: and that still doens't mean that you don't have to do the work
(03:05:07 PM) Chris: you know what... give me a corporate office number/email address... this has REALLY gone on far too long, I've been thoroughly unimpressed with the entire ITT experience as a whole, I'm not paying for some sham of a teacher to whine and complain about what she has to do and treat students like preschoolers, I'm paying for a proper education, and at $45,000 for an associates degree I'm pretty damn sure that I should be getting my money's worth, and I'm not
(03:28:49 PM) Cielle: Why don't you wait to see what Pat and Gerald have to say, and then if you are still not happy, then go to corporate
[END]


There has GOT TO BE SOMETHING that can be done, personally, I feel that this is enough grounds for a C.A.L. and with the way things have been going as of late in regards to ITT... the only thing I've seen my money going to, is advertising. How many times do I have to tell the staff at this <sarcasm>Oh so wonderous school</sarcasm> that I'm paying for an education (which trust me, I know that is no longer true, but I will fight tooth and nail until it gets resolved, or they get shut down) and not a sham of a teacher.


Feedback, comments, related stories welcome. Looking out for you as you look out for me.
Up with hope, down with ITT!

Comp II Day 11: Absent

[sevenalive]

That was a good post, hope you will share more stories. I got a few still that i haven't shared yet. You ought to read my posts about stan the "web developer" in classes and instructors.

We are paying all of this money and we don't get shit. I been trying to start a CAL, but its hard to get a hold of a real lawyer in a firm. We need some Consumer litigation CAL lawyers. This bullshit has gone too far long enough.

[aka name]

There has GOT TO BE SOMETHING that can be done, personally, I feel that this is enough grounds for a C.A.L. and with the way things have been going as of late in regards to ITT... the only thing I've seen my money going to, is advertising. .

Wow, I actually read the whole thing...
We had root cause analysis training at my job a few weeks ago, from an outside firm, and one of the first things the lecturer said was something like, "Good people cannot do well in a bad system." This is why people who actually want to learn something are wasting their time at ITT Blech. If people knew what really goes on in these places - versus the flowery BS in the TV commercials - this 'school' would have been shut down by the Feds years ago.

[gaintsura]

aka name, I completely agree.. Whats kind of funny, is the previous term, a friend of mine whom I met via ITT Blech (I like that one lol) Showed me an article that was about how ITT was being bought out and all sorts of crap. We spread it across the entire school and the next thing we knew we had the head's of the learning site telling us to stop spreading it because they had never heard of it and because of that it 'wasn't true'. I didn't even bother waiting to hear what they had to say in response to it. As a matter of fact, since then, they've considered the matter 'closed' and have not spoken about it since.

Seven Alive: I'll take a look at your stories when I get a little bit of time to do so. As fro the C.A.L I'll look around locally here and see if there are any lawyers who will look into taking this.. I'm also going to direct more people to this site from my area because they also have been fed up with the way this has been going, and sadly, they are all quite smart and stuck dealing with the bureaucracy known as ITT Blech.

I wonder if there is a way to start a petition of some sort to have them shut down and our money refunded?

Thanks again guys.

[gaintsura]

Heh, so I just recieved a response from them, only took them 5 days to 'construct' a response. Who the hell do they think they are?

---

Hello Chris,

Thank you for taking the time to share with me your concerns about Ms. Minich and your Composition II course last term. I reviewed your concerns and shared them with the Dean and Cielle Amundson. After carefully looking into your concerns, the following observations have been made:

You stated in your email that “I understand that composition II is supposed to be a debate/argumentative styled class”

Composition II works on creating an Argumentative Essay as the final project. This does not mean that this is an argument and debate ‘style’ class. The objective is to be able to logically argue a topic in essay form.

You are correct in that Ms. Minich was a new instructor. As with all new instructors, coaching takes place and this occurred with Ms. Minich as well. As a result we received many student comments that she improved and was helpful to them.

You also mentioned that you should have passed her class, GE217. I concur, you should have passed it. However, you did not submit approximately 15 assignments and I cannot logically see how passing the class was possible when you did not turn in your work, at your own choosing.

Chris it is important that in spite of whether you like or dislike an instructor that you do your best to turn your work in and give it your best effort. If you have any questions regarding these issues you can contact the Dean, Gerald LaFleur or me at 303-288-4488 or the School Director in Aurora, Jill Kemme.

Regards,

Patrick E. Longstreth
Associate Dean
ITT Technical Institute
Thornton, CO
---
You're damn skippy I didn't do 15 assignments. I don't see a reason to do 3 assignments on commas, in a composition II college class. And secondly, I don't have time to take out of my day to provide them with a 3 page outline and 15 sources.. I don't know about the rest of you, but I do have a life out side of ITT Blech. Not to mention, 15 'hardcore' assignments, ranging from doing everything we did in Comp I AGAIN to looking up political crap, which I don't think we should have been doing to begin with, especially in a technical school.. thats more assignments than there are weeks.

Good god...

[sevenalive]

Well when i took English 102 at a real college, we had 8 weeks to read a book and do a 10 page critical analysis. I chose war and peace, little did i know it was 1400 page monster. I got a 98 on the paper, rest of the class got D's.

To do a 8 page essay in 1 week is crazy, i thought 10 page essay i had was also nuts. That letter cracked me up, fucking PR bullshit.

As a result we received many student comments that she improved and was helpful to them.

That is pure BS.

Everything i think about ITT, it pisses me off.

[gaintsura]

You're not the only one... If it weren't for me being 'such a nice person' I'd probably dig out the anarchist cookbook and construct something sinister.. but thats not the way to go about things... I like psychological warfare much better.

[ttobba]

I am currently in english 150 at ISU. we have 48hrs to get a 500 word speech prepared about the best or worst experience of ur life. At ITT it would have be a 100 word speech were u get the entire quarter to do it.

[aka name]

At ITT it would have be a 100 word speech were u get the entire quarter to do it.

And people would still copy off each other.

[gaintsura]

Heh, got that right... I printed out the flyer from http://ittakestime.org/post174.html?hilit=Spread%20the%20word%20Campaign#p174 Spread the Word and I'm also going to print the above experience with the same page, and paper the Aurora 'Learning Site, as well as the Campus.

[SheepToTheFleecing]

Gaintsura,

Um, most of your complaints seem unfounded. Your teacher was consistently mean to you. The work was too easy. There was too much work. Aside from the teacher being mean you have very little to complain about. Although you did attend ITT Tech so you could be a raving lunatic and you would still have my sympathy and a feeling of kinship from me.
I still don't understand the proper use of commas. Which is strange because I am a college graduate (A.S. from ITT Technical Institute.) I don't feel bad though; my biggest hero in the world didn't know the meaning of the word shill and misspelled the word liars.

Ga 6:7

[Veracity]

As a graduate student at Marshall University, it is an insult to higher education that ITT Tech is allowed to operate. The accredidation status and cost of attendance relegates them as a devious corporation, rather than, an institution of higher learning. It is difficult not to have sympathy with the students who are being exploited.

While it is easy to identify with the anger of the author (Chris), the requirements of the course seemed appropriate. The instructor required an initial writing sample from the students. From this sample, one can only deduce that the class had a problem with basic grammar principles. It may seem unfair to subject the entire class to a remedial refresher in comma usage; however, instructors have to tailor the subject matter to the audience. Apparently, other members of the class demonstrated a lack of punctuation syntax. Perhaps, your argument would be more strongly reinforced by discovering the reason for this basic education. If the students demonstrated extremely poor punctutation skills, this denotes that they do not qualify for a level II composition course. Federal aid is heavily weighted in the ability of the students to demonstrate proficiency. My advice would be to keep the handouts and alert the Director that you intend to show the remedial material to an attorney. This action would illicit a greater response because it correlates with their direct source of funding.

As for the writing assignment, it is appropriate for an English class. At my undergraduate school, English 102 required a ten page argumentative essay. The essay was required to: introduce the thesis, present the opposing argument, support the opposing argument, present your point of view, support your point of view, analyze the logical fallacies of the opposition, and draw a conclusion. In addition, the class was required to provide,at minimum, six sources of peer reviewed articles in APA format. By most University standards, the requirement at ITT Tech still seems a little light.

Unfortunately, all college students must face the ultimate dilemma: the balance between work, a social life, and school. While I do understand the sentiment of the original post, higher education does require significant effort and much of that effort is spent completing tasks that are not the ideal activity of the student. The larger concern is the reward that you derive from a sense of accomplishment. Through the interpretation of what has been written here, a degree from ITT Tech will not fulfill that need.

[sevenalive]

Well written ^^